Stephen Lyons – 1827 to 1890 hypothetical page, concentrating on Theory 3..

Born 1827
Family lore and the various censuses say he was born in Ireland. Family tradition says Cork and 1871 census says "Co Cork, Ireland". Other records only refer to "Ireland". Census records put his birth at 1827 plus or minus a year. My research on their Irish origins is recorded here

.Early Life in Cork

Stephen Lyons was born in Cork cerca 1827 and emigrated to Bermondsey late1851 or 1852.. Of 1596 entries in Griffiths in 1852 for the surname "Lyons", 20% are in Cork and Cork City, 13% in Galway, 9% in Limerick, 7% in Kerry with the other 51% of the Lyons mentions in Griffiths being scattered across all the other counties. Cork has the most Lyons in Ireland

Finding Stephen Lyons in Cork covers the search in more detail, but my feeling after visiting the NLI in March 2008 was that one possible candidate was Stephen Lyons, born to Patrick Lyons and Mary Daly at Ardprior, Buttevant Parish on 3 February 1827. The following, Theory 1, COULD be his family unit, but no proof. And of Oct 2009, I feel 99.9% certain that Theory 3 is the correct one and that parish records do not exist in the parish where Stephen's parents married<1827 and had their 4 sons..

A new site is being developed by the Irish government and should have all Cork records available for free by end 2010: at present claims to have Cork City but I do not think the records are complete still -2012. In Jan,2011, I spent 4 more days in the NLI Dublin, examining Cork fiches, without any breakthrough, but do feel that I might state a couple of possibilities at this stage. All NLI records now promised to be online by 2015 summer!

http://www.irishgenealogy.ie/news.html

Theory 1.

12/05/1825 Thomas . Patrick Lyons & Mary Daly Greymiles . Sp.Thomas Sheehan & Eliz. Donoghue
07/02/1827 Stephen . Patrick Lyons & Mary Daly Ardprior . John Kenelly & Eliza Lyons
17/03/1829 Patrick . Patrick Lyons & Mary Daly Greymiles . Will. Framley? & Honora Sheehan
02/12/1831 John . Patrick Lyons & Mary Daly Greymiles . . . Denis Hayes & Mary Daly.
06/04/1834 Jeremiah . Patrick Lyons & Mary Daly Ardprior . Sp. Robin Bevil & Mary Lyons

I have searched 1851,1861, 1871 & 1881Cs for the above but unable to get any leads.

I am not happy with this theory as, at the time, Irish families used a traditional naming system for their children. Maybe there was a Patrick born and died 1823-1828 in the above unit, but then I would expect Stephen & Catherine in turn->1851 - to call their first born Patrick, and possibly to call other sons Thomas/Patrick/John/Jeremiah. Where did their sons' names of Timothy and Michael come from?

An Ancestry personal tree, author from Wiltshire,[who I have tried, in vain, to contact] claims that a Stephen 1827 Buttevant went to the States and was in 1850, 1860 & 1870 Censuses there, but, in my view, his 3 census references are all different Stephens!, all just from 'Ireland'. But, for the record: in 1860 US Census, in Augusta Ward, Richmond, Georgia, do feel we might have 2 of the above family :there is a Thomas 35, Johanna 30, Mulkie 10, Ellen 4, Patrick 3 and a Stephen 32, the first 3 and Stephen all born Ireland, the 2 youngest children born Georgia. Both Thomas & Stephen labourers. And in 1870 US Census, still in Augusta, almost certainly ? the same Thomas 47 policeman, Bridget 40, Annie 15, John 12, Mary 10, Maggie 6, Patrick 4, Lizzie 1, all children born Georgia. In 1880 US Census, still in Augusta, Thomas 56, R R Watchman, Johanna 50, Patrick 22, Annie 18, Stephen 14, Eliza 8 : Patrick here consistent with 1860 C, but otherwise children do not seem to confirm the same family unit! Any immigration records 1851-1857?? http://www.castlegarden.org/ but not enough info. given

This American find, though not conclusive, strengthens my belief that this Theory 1 is wrong for our family.

Theory 2

Another possibility is Stephen Lyons born to Edmund Lyons and Mary Warren on 23 February 1829 at Ardskea, Buttevant Parish. Only 2 sisters shown for this Stephen. Here again I would expect Stephen's firstborn to be called Edmund.

Theory 3.

But, a Nov.2008 hypothesis is that Stephen's father would have been a Timothy Lyons, since 1. I think his mother was Honorah Lyons, living in the same house as he was in 1861C, and she was the widow of Timothy Lyons: & 2. this is what Stephen called his firstborn in 1852. In 1861 Stephen is living at 26 College Street with his family. His age is given as 32: from other censuses and his d.c., an age here of 33/34 is more probable. In the same house is Honorah Lyons, 52, widow, midwife, and 2 sons, John 28 & Patrick 21 & a Mary Burke 11 niece, all b.Ireland . Honorah dies 25/06/1870, of Dropsy, at 20 College Street, stated age 58, informant Patrick Lyons, [son] and d.c states she is the widow of Timothy Lyons, a farmer. She is not recorded as buried at either St. Patrick's Leytonstone nor St. Mary's Kensal Rise Catholic Cemeteries, but maybe was buried at Dockhead: cemetery bombed in WW2.

Now think there is a 99% probability of Timothy & Honorah being Stephen's parents [although, given Honorah's stated young age in relation to that of Stephen, she could be a second wife of his father, Timothy, for, if her 1861 and d.c ages are roughly correct- she would have been born ~1812 and thus unlikely - but marriage at 14+ was not infrequent back then - to marry before 1830, by which time, if Stephen's 1871,1881 and d.c ages are correct [ even ignoring the 1861 blib] he, Stephen, had been born. But she could still be the mother of Timothy, as well as of John & Patrick - as stated in 1861C.

Like Stephen, they are not in 1851C. I supect that Patrick, and thus Honorah & John, did not arrive in London until >1859, as he, Patrick, is not a godparent to one of Stephen's children [Michael] until 1861 [I obtained the d.c. of a Timothy Lyons 1855 St.Olaves, but it is not of Honorah's husband, so would think he died in Ireland pre 1861]. . . . .If so, we have

Stephen b.c1827, godparent to the first of Timothy's children, Mary Lyons 1866, born in England - leading one to believe a close family connection.

John b.1830/3. 1894 d.c. gives him as 63, 1861C as 28, 1871C as 35, 1881C as 58!, 1891C as 61: feel the 1861 age is prob. the most reliable!!]

Timothy b.1831/4 -1878. Only census he is in, 1871, gives him as 40, his 1878 d.c gives him as 43!! He is certainly related to John[ & hence to Patrick from John's d.c. . . . . .&

Patrick b.c1839. Patrick Lyons is godfather to Stephen's son, Michael,1861, & also godfather to Timothy's 1867 son Timothy as

brothers.

The Timothy, c.1834, here is connected by blind John Lyons, as this John is living with Stephen in 1871C and with Timothy's widow, Catherine in 1881C [see paragraph below] : this must be more than a coincidence. This Timothy married Catherine Coughlan 12/02/1861 in Enniskean.

I have failed to find evidence of Timothy Lyons's Irish baptism ~1831-4 & of the rest of this hypothetical family in the church records for Enniskean [ and neither did JL looking at the original Enniskean records in May 2009] and neighbouring parishes [ from the fiches in the NLI]. In Feb.2009, & again in Jan 2011, I searched exhaustively for baptisms for Stephen, John, Timothy & Patrick, 1826-1841, to parents Timothy & Honorah, in probably ALL Cork parishes, with no seeming success. No marriage found either of a Timothy to a Honorah.

There is a union of a Timothy & Norry/Honorah Sullivan < 1827, shown by baptisms of John 1827, Catherine1831, Daniel 1834, & maybe Ellen 1838 around Carrigaline: no other baptisms found to this couple, & seemingly births of these children here mentioned preclude my children, Stephen, John & Timothy being born at roughly the same time. Thus I do not really think this couple could be the parents of Timothy, John & Patrick, & thus maybe of Stephen.

Also a union of a Timothy Lyons & Hon/Betty Murphy < 1829 at St. Marys Cork, shown by baptisms of Mary 1829, mother Hon. Murphy, & Timothy 1831, mother Betty Murphy.[Could an Honorah also call herself Betty??]. This possibility fits in with Stephen marrying in St. Marys in 1851, but fails miserably in there not being any baptisms of Stephen, John nor Patrick to this couple!.. But given our Timothy is given as aged 40 in 1871C it would seem to be a possible origin of Timothy Lyons, afflicted. Think I should re-search St Marys fiche, looking for John & Patrick baptisms

Another line of thought must be that Timothy & Honorah were indeed parents of John & Patrick, but not of Stephen - he being their nephew. But even with this theory, I have not found a 1838-1841 baptism of said Patrick to them. The fact that Patrick vanishes between the 1870 Honorah death and 1871C does not help!!

Have searched for niece Mary Burke[+variations] in 1871C but nothing [ & also looked out for any male Burke to female Lyons m. on NLI fiches!], and only poss. marriage is after this census.

A Timothy Lines, 40, 'afflicted', in Shipyard , nr.Tooley Street, exists in 1871C, with wife Catherine 33[Coughlan], both b.Cork. They married 12/2/1861 in Enniskean & had a son John, baptised 26/11/1861 Enniskeane, then a daughter Ellen baptised in St. Finbarrs, Cork in 1863, and were in England by 1865/6 for the birth & baptism of their 3rd child, Mary/Polly:

. . Mary Lyons, b: 24/2/1866, baptised 25th February 1866, Dockhead. Godparents: Stephen Lyons and Mary Cahalan.

. . Timothy Lyons b.24/07/1867, Union Workhouse, have b.c. B19 , born 25/7/67, baptised 17/10/67,St. Georges RCC. Godparents: Patrick Lyons & Joanna Warren, Rev J Danell .

followed by Cornelius, Jeremiah, Catherine, Bridget & Anne 1869 -1877 - no interesting godparents!

By 1881C, Timothy Lyons has died[1878] and Catherine has remarried Jeremiah/John Hurley, Marriages Jun 1879 Hurley Jeremiah Lyons Catherine St Saviour 1d 269 . Marriage in St.Georges RCC, see later,
and living with them in the same house, 26, College Street[small world!] is a blind John Lyons, stated age 58, b. Co. Cork. Despite the age daftness, 48-50 is more realistic , I feel sure this is the same blind John Lyons as was living with , and related to, Stephen in 1871C. His mother, Honorah, has died June 1870, he moves in with eldest brother Stephen in 1870, and, maybe 3 or 4 years later transfers to live with brother Timothy and after Timothy dies in March 1878 , blind John Lyons continues in his sister-in-law's household.

In 1891C, John Lyons is probably already in St. Olaves Workhouse: there is a John Lyons, b.Ireland, aged 60, a retired carpenter!..

blind

John Lyons dies 13/3/1894 d.c.D.19, 63, formerly a Corn Porter, of no.26 College Street, St.John, Southwark. ; he dies in St. Olave's Union Infirmary of Phthisis and the informant is Mary Osborne, cousin, 17 Wolf Street, Bermondsey. Small world again concerning 26 College Street! and now Wolf Street as well:. Mary Lyons, 1866 daughter of Timothy Lyons, labourer, married William Henry Osborne on 5/4/1885 in protestant All Saints, Walworth. . Mary Lyons is Timothy & Catherine's daughter, aged 15 in 1881C at 26 College Street, and her remarried mother , Katherine Hurley is at 18 Woolf Street in 1901C .

What is mystifying is how he could have been a corn porter &/or a carpenter[ but possibly cornporter incorrectly transcribed ] when blind!!!: and certainly in 1871C & 1881C he has no occupation.

Meanwhile I would suspect that brother Patrick Lyons [ unfindable in 1871 and subsequent censuses ?? - thought I found a possible one in 1881C: April 2012?, but not there in June 2012!] emigrated soon after Honorah died,1870-71: he could [only faint chance] have married Sep 1866 to CORRIGAN Anne Richmond Sry 2a 461 or to RYAN Mary Richmond S. 2a 461 .Interestingly, he could not write in 1870 [his mark on Honorah's d.c.], but hypothetical brother Stephen certainly could in 1883. Equally well Patrick could just have moved away from Bermondsey & Surrey. There is a death in Mar 1871 Portsea 2b 308 of a Patrick Lyons aged 36 -just a slim possibility [ but there are similar aged Patrick Lyonses from Cork in 1861C in the navy!] he might have joined the Navy/Army?. Also obtained the 1888 d.c. for a Patrick Lyons, 52, [thus born c 1836?], a Foreman Cooper of 99 East Lane; he fell down the stairs and there was an inquest [obtainable??], and informant is the deputy coroner, which doesnot help me identify him, but there is a Patrick, cooper, living at 99 EastLane in 1871C, and he was married before 1861 and had his first child in Ireland, so NOT US. Also thought he might return to Ireland after his mother's death - but far too many Patrick Lyons , b~1839, die in Cork. to have a hope of proving this. Have looked at Irish deaths -   sadly far, far too many for Patrick Lyons born 1835-40. Also just searched the 1901 Irish census for him - 4 found in Cork County  but only 2 with children still at home and no similar family names!!!

 

Lives of Timothy Lyons 1834-1878 & Catherine Coughlan/Lyons/Hurley 1835-1907

 

lyons-hypo-2012

Theory 4.

A Stephen Lyons from Castlemagner marries Ann Graddy from Kilbrin in 1824. Several children are baptised to them in Castlemagner 1833-8, but only one son John 1835. Baptism records only started for this parish 1832, so there would not be one for a Stephen b.~1827. Our Stephen & Catherine do call their 2nd son Stephen in 1859, and on this theory one would suppose that he probably also had brothers Timothy & Michael [we know Catherine's father was called John, so these names do not seem to come from her side]. This contradicts Theory 3: maybe the younger Timothy & Honorah were not related, or Honorah could have been an aunt to Timothy1834. . In this case, Stephen, married 1824 would have had a brother Timothy. But I also found no baptisms for John ~1832 & Patrick~1840 to the said farmer Timothy & his wife Honorah in any Catholic Church record on fiche in the NLI. I wonder if Castlemagner parish has a list of its own records and if these might contain more than the NLI fiche[like St. Finbarrs and some Tipperary parishes].

Think the stroke of luck to determine the right theory was the d.c. of John Lyons, 1894, which proved he was closely related to Timothy c 1834 whose daughter described herself as a cousin of John-, actually I think niece, but supposes it is just possible that John and Timothy were cousins, not brothers. And the 1871C entry for Stephen states John as his son, and I feel this must read brother.

So, I am opting for Theory 3, and now have to find some births of these 4 brothers to a Timothy & Honorah in Ireland, Cork. Although I searched for these in Mar 2009, I feel Bandon & Desertserges tapes should be perused again: near to where Timothy married in 1861 in Enniskeane. Also Carrigaline, where a Catherine was baptised 1830 to Timothy Lyons & Norry Sullivan, & a John c1827 & a Daniel c1834 to Timothy Lyons & Honora Sullivan .. Also Milford where a Timothy was baptised to a Timothy Lyans in 1832.

Working on theory 1 I did not find hypothetical brother Thomas, Patrick or Jeremiah in 1861,1881 or 1891 censuses

 

More ,old, probably redundant notes!

1881. John Lyons, 58, blind, lodger, at 26 College St. with Catherine Hurley, 38, b.Cork, & her Lyons children, aged 5-15, all b. Horsleydown . Working back 10 years, in 1871 we have Timothy Lines, 40, wharf lab.,afflicted, Catherine 33, wife, John 9 spinal congst., all 3 b. Cork, & 3 younger children b.Southwark, living at Shipyard, p.42 of district 1, St.Olave. Timothy dies Mar 1878, aged 48.[ have his d.c. ; died of T.B. in St. Olave Union Inf., informant Catherine Lyons, widow of deceased, 12, College St., Tooley St., Southwark.] and Catherine has remarried Jun 1879 1d. 269 St.Saviour Jeremiah Hurley. So, what is the connection between Stephen & Timothy Lyons that each provide a home for blind John??? Timothy arrived in England after 1861[ 'cos son John, b.~1861 in Cork, and a daughter Ellen baptised 1863 in St. Finbarr's] and before 1866[ when Mary/Polly born Mar 1866] , already married; could I find an Irish marriage record for him? I have found Catherine's maiden name from a b.c. of one of their English born children , Timothy Lyons Sep 1867 St.Olave 1d.33.: it is Coughlan. I could also search in 1891C for John or for his death 1881-1891.; only possibility for death is, aged 57, Jun 1884 Lambeth 1d.304. If this were him, the 3 ages recorded[2 censuses & this] give him born 1835, 1823 & 1827!! And John, aged 9 with spinal congestion in 1871C probably dies,aged 12, in 1874. This family is traceable in 1891C and 1901C, by which time Katherine's second husband is also dead.[but no further clue on where she came from in Ireland!] . More on all this earlier on this site!

There is a marriage 1859 in Milford, Cork [less than 10 miles N.W of Ardprior] of Timothy Lyans and a baptism of a John Lyans in 1864, Milford. And a Timothy Lyans is baptised in Milford in 1832 to a father Timothy Lyans. [ Also Timothy 1857 marriages in Banteer & Castleroche, and 1861 in Mitchelstown] . But, have just found that this 1859 marriage is to an Ellen Daly.

2. Speculation on Honorah Lyons, 52, widow, midwife,1861C, living in same house ,26, College St. as Stephen. Who is she the widow of? She has children John, 28, Patrick 21 and a niece Mary Bourke 11, all of whom were born in Ireland. Can not find this family unit in 1851C. Did her husband die after they came to England? She dies Jun 1870 St.Olave 1d.125: have this d.c. and she is the widow of Timothy Lyons, farmer. Applied for a d.c of a Timothy in St. Olave 1855{Feb8 2009]- not him.. Can not find an entry for Patrick[who is the witness on Honorah's 1870 d.c] in 1871C. But.... John could have become blind by 1871 and be the '35' yr old John Lines, son!, living with Stephen and family in Brunswick Court!!, and the blind John, 58?!, in 1881 living with Catherine Hurley[ex Lyons]. There is a death of a Patrick,52 in St Olave 1d.163 Dec 1888; have this! - Not him!

 

 

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