1888 Elizabeth Mary Josephine Lyons born 24/04/1888 at 11, Goldsmiths Terrace, Goldsmith Road, Peckham B9. Parents Timothy & Elizabeth [nee Tobin] Lyons. Their 5th child. Surviving siblings: William John Lyons 1880, Helen Lyons 1885 & Elizabeth Lyons 1891. No baptism found.
Known as Josie .
1891Census. Mary J Lyons, 3, living at 34 Kinross Street, [this has been demolished, but was off Tanner Street] Bermondsey.
I wonder if any school records exist for Bermondsey 1893-1903?
1901 Census. Josephine Lyons, 12, living
Wilds Rents Bermondsey
Timothy S. 48 Dock Labourer b.Bermondsey
Elizabeth 45 . . . . . . . . . . . . . . b.Bermondsey
Elizabeth 9, . . . . . . . . . . . . . . .b.Bermondsey
Josephine 12 . . . . . . . . . . . . . .b.Peckham
Helen 15 . . . . . . . . .. . . . . . . . b.Blackfriars
William J. 19 General Carman. b.Bermondsey
David Tobin 30 married Wharf Labourer. b.Bermondsey . Thus the family with 4 surviving children plus Elizabeth's brother, David, 30, once again
1911C. Josephine Lyons, aged 23, milliner, b. Bermondsey, with her parents at 3 Marcia Road, occupying 4 rooms. Her 2 sisters are living separately.
1919 Mary J Lyons married William Collins on 3/5/1919 at the Church of the English Martyrs [ Bmd wrongly shows her as marrying in South Molton!: but the ref. for William Collins marrying a Lyons is for Southwark ]. She is 30, Milliners Trimmer of 3 Marcia Road, Old Kent Road, he 29, Borough Council Labourer & Pt. Oxford & Bucks Regt, of 90 Great Dover Street..Her father, Timothy Lyons, is given as Wharfingers Warehouseman, his father, Michael Collins, as Superannuated Inspector of Works (LCC). Witnesses were her younger sister, Elizabeth Allen, and her husband, John Allen. He, William Collins, not living at 90 Great Dover Street in 1911C!
Irrelevant now!: A William Henry Collins lived in 4 Marcia Place in 1891- from Rate book. This family also in 1891C, son William Collins 19 ,carman, b. Southwark. The same family without William Collins also at 4 Marcia Place in 1901C . He, William Collins, 30, may be a boarder, a Cressman, in Brunswick St. Southwark OR, unlikely, William H Collins aged 30, married, market porter, wife Kathleen & 3 children 3-8, in Earl Road ,Bermondsey. William HENRY Collins & Mary Ann Collins, both 63, living alone in 6 rooms in 4 Marcia Road in 1911C. In 1881C , he also seems to be William H Collins, aged 10, eldest child, at 3 Alfred Place Southwark . William Collins born c.1872 [Jun 1871 St. Sav. or Mar 1873 St. Sav.] not baptised -Ancestry [ Red Herring!! the following : -1901C a William H. Collin 11, in 3 Ventry Place Newington, with father William Henry, 34, costermonger, but cannot find them in 1891C! 1911C, this William H Collins is in the army RFA, born Peckham, but father given as Henry James Collins, Ventry Place, mother Charlotte ]. So seemingly none the wiser on this William Collins
1920. William & Josie Collins had 1 child, Irene Elizabeth.Josephine Collins, born 9/1/1920 at the General Lying-in Hospital, York Road. Father a Private Labour Corps [ LCC messenger] of 73 Westmoreland Road, Camberwell. Informant on 13/1/1920 was M. Collins, mother, 73 Westmoreland Road, Camberwell.
Irene Elizabeth Collins was born just 7 months after her parents married
The General Lying-In Hospital was opened in April 1767 as the Westminster New Lying-in Hospital, on the north side of Westminster Bridge Road, Lambeth. Early in the 1820s the governors decided to move to new premises. They acquired a building lease of a plot of ground with 100-foot frontage on the east side of York Road, Lambeth - photo below
1921C. Josephine Collins was living 3 Peabody Buildings, Dufferin Street, Finsbury, London & Middlesex with her unemployed husband( a hat trimmer, which was Josie's occupation in 1919!)) and daughter, irene
|Male||1889||31||Middlesex, England||Labourer Hat Tremmer||Not In Work|
|Female||1889||32||Peckham, London, England||House Duties||-|
1922. Irene Elizabeth Josephine Collins died, aged 2, 14/5/1922, at 72A East Dulwich Grove, of 1. Measles, 2. Broncho pneumonia .. Informant was W. Collins, father, home painter's labourer, in attendance, of 61 Gurney Street, Walworth.
72A East Dulwich Grove was St Saviour's Union Infirmary: photo belowE!
61 Gurney Street was both the child's and her father's address- so no reason to feel the parents had separated
It is thought that maybe one of her sisters looked after Irene.; this would tie in with the thought that she, Josie, was slightly simple. !Also it is thought that William & Josie split up after the death of their child, maybe even before this, as separate addresses seemingly on the b.c) - Dubious!!.
I have searched London Electoral registers for Mary Josephine Collins, and also for William Collins, 1920-1965, and can not certainly identify them anywhere - I rather think Josie did not bother registering
There is a story that her sister, Helen Blackmore , unable to have children with her husband, wanted to adopt Josie's child, but I can find no proof for this. Indeed the Blackmores seem to have been living in Stoke Newington from 1917 and Irene Collins died south of the river in Camberwell.
.Quote from Philippa: Mother
[Hilda] said that Josie's daughter might have been adopted by Aunt Nell &
Uncle Jack because they couldn't have children and Josie couldn't afford to
keep her but that the little girl had died. Josie was either separated or divorced.
She was in low-paid employment, domestic service I think. I'm pretty sure the
other sister [Elizabeth} lived near Croydon as did Josie. [But Elizabeth, as
Elizabeth Allen , lived in Marcia Road, Southwark 1924-1939, so could only have
gone to Croydon after that].
Mother said that all the sibs had a troubled relationship with William which she put down to their mother's[ Elizabeth Tobin] gossiping. She talked about them behind their backs. Grandma Jessie didn't like William's mother. Apparently she drank - was always at the pub with a group of other women! [This would seem extraordinary for the times, so maybe this story arose from a mutual dislike between Jessie and Elizabeth]
Thus Josie does not seem to have stayed with her husband very long??.
1939 Register. Josephine Collins, born 24/4/1888, paid domestic duties, is living with her elder married sister at 104 The Ridgeway, Enfield . Helen Blackmore, born 27/9/1887 ( should be 1885), and John H Blackmore, born 26/9/1887, clerk Insurance Industry, Lloyds . Who is the other person in the house, seemingly under 21! - closed on both FMP & Ancestry
|John H||Blackmore||26 Sep 1887||Male||Clerk Insurance Industry (Lloyds)||Married||100||1|
|Helen||Blackmore||27 Sep 1887||Female||Unpaid Domestic Duties||Married||100||3|
|Josephine||Collins||24 Apr 1888||Female||Paid Domestic Duties||Married||100||4|
1950s. Josie was still alive in the 1950s, and Philippa Neil [ Hilda's daughter] remembers her visiting them in Harrow. Also John remembers her visiting his parents, Bill & Eileen, in the early 1950s in Harrow. There is a picture of her at the 1934 wedding of her niece, Eva Lyons. Probably lived in Croydon post war. I wondered if Hilda's possessions might contain a decent picture of her - seemingly no.
Josie Collins thought to be the small lady in the back row of the photo , second from end- then aged 46
1969. Mary Josephine Collins, 81, born 24/2/1888, widow of -- Collins, died 14/7/1969 at Queen's Hospital, Queen's Road, Croydon . Her usual address was Queen's Hospital. Cause of death was a. Bronchopneumonia, b. Cerebral Thrombosis - right hemiplegia. Informant Clifford Watkins, of 106A Nightingale Road, Carshalton, 'causing the body to be buried' - i.e the undertaker or hospital employee in charge of burials [so seemigly no one in the family probably knew or cared that she was there! But her elser sister, Helen Blackmore, was still alive, and Hilda and Bill h were seemingly in contact with her in the 1960s ] . Queens Hospital had been the Croydon Workhouse, but bd 1969- likely since 1948 - housed geriatrics - photo below : http://ezitis.myzen.co.uk/queens.html. Her birthday here given is 2 months out!
It is not known what happened to her husband, whan he died etc.
For details of her family tree and of her childhood ,return to
Lyons family main page